Norma Baker-Flying Horse

The views and opinions expressed by speakers and presenters in connection with Art Restart are their own, and not an endorsement by the Thomas S. Kenan Institute for the Arts and the UNC School of the Arts. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Norma Baker-Flying Horse’s designs are the stuff of fashion runway dreams. They display the sophistication, impeccable tailoring and gorgeous lines of her fashion idols, including Chanel and McQueen, but what makes them exceptional is that they incorporate gorgeous details that bespeak her Native heritage. 

Norma Baker-Flying Horse, whose company, Red Berry Woman, bears her given Native name, is a member of the Hidatsa, Dakota Sioux and Assiniboine tribes, and her creations often bear designs from these cultures rendered via traditional techniques, including intricate beadwork and/or appliques of smoked hide, sometimes even feathers or shells. And all in a spectacular color palette.

Norma has been designing bespoke pieces in and for her community for years, but recently her reach has gone national and international. She showed at Paris Fashion Week in 2019; in 2022 she won Designer of the Year at Phoenix Fashion Week and was also the co-recipient of a Cultural Recognition Visual Arts Grammy; and the 2022 Miss America pageant featured one of her designs when Rachel Evangelisto, Miss Minnesota, wore a Red Berry Woman gown onstage. 

Here Norma explains how she wed her forebears’ cultural skills and know-how with a taste for glamour she unexpectedly cultivated as a little girl in toy heels on the North Dakota prairie to create a singular brand. She also describes the rigors of being a self-taught and self-guided business owner who won’t even let a C-section keep her from delivering a gown on schedule.

Choose a question below to begin exploring the interview:

• Can you describe your favorite recent piece? Could you tell us what it looks like and how you created it?
• When did your interest in fashion begin? And at what point did you realize you wanted to marry your interest in Indigenous designs with your developing fashion sense?
• As a small child wearing high heels out in the pasture, you liked high fashion and you’re also learning beadwork. At what point did you realize, “Hey, wait a minute, these two things can go together?”
• You yourself are multicultural Native woman, and you also make clothing for Native peoples from different cultures. How free do you feel to mix and match traditions? Is there a limit?
• How are you going to ensure you retain control not only of your work, but also of the stories that come with your artmaking?
• What’s been the steepest learning curve for you in your business journey? You were always in control of your art, but what did you have to learn about the business side of things?
• What are your dreams for the business now that you’re two years in and you’ve shown internationally? Do you have a big-picture dream of where you want your designs to be?
• As you look back on your artistic journey and your business journey, what could be invented or changed so that it would be easier for you to reach your intended audience?
• Could you talk about a new or planned design that you are particularly excited about? Or a new line?

Pier Carlo Talenti: I thought one way for us to dive into your work would be for you to describe your favorite recent piece. Could you tell us what it looks like and how you created it?

Norma Baker-Flying Horse: It’s so hard to decide which piece is my favorite, but I’m going to be honest with you. I think I have one every year, but the one that took this year’s prize is the Miss America pageant dress worn by Miss Minnesota. She was competing, and she calls me up and says, “I really want to wear one of your gowns because I’m wearing something that’s going to be orange, which represents the movement that’s happening for the boarding schools up in Canada right now.” The Indigenous people are discovering our relatives that were murdered, and the color orange represents that movement of 1) bringing home the family members that were lost to these boarding schools and 2) looking for a way to hold people accountable because, crazy enough, there are people still alive that used to work in these boarding schools. They’re very elderly, but they’re still alive. That tells you how recent that trauma to our people was. 

It was awesome that she wore a dress to represent that on the stage. The breastplate of the dress is a smoked hide, which is predominantly used throughout my cultural attire as well as hers. She comes from the Lakota tribe. She’s a member of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, and I’m from the Dakota Sioux Tribe, which is from Fort Peck, MT. I did Dakota florals on the front. I loved it so much because it represented something that we all knew was happening as Indigenous people, but it was so traumatizing to talk about that it took actually getting to see proof of what was going on. I just wish everyone had known who was at the pageant exactly why she wore that color, but that’s why social media is so great because you can send your message out there and it can reach so many people. 

She did such a fantabulous job. I thought she should have won, but I’m being biased. [She laughs.] She’s fantastic in every way. That was my favorite, favorite piece, and to see her standing on the Miss America stage wearing something that I had made, that’s the closest to the crown that I think I’m ever going to get. I love pageants. I’ve been watching Miss America since I was a little girl, so to see my work on the stage was surreal.

Pier Carlo: How long did it take you to make it? And do you work alone, or do you have a team helping you?

Norma: A lot of pieces I do work alone. A few pieces, I will recruit my sisters, my mother, my daughters. Because I come from a family of artists. I don’t think I know anybody in our family that doesn’t take part in some way in our cultural doings. My mother married a gentleman from here who had children prior to their marriage, and even his children are well-versed in the culture here. It’s one of those things where you just naturally do it because it’s something that you’ve been taught since you were a little girl. 

I just naturally do things on my own. Being the eldest of the family and being a mother and just being the type of person that I am, it’s hard for me to ask for help. It’s hard for me to trust people to do things the way I want them done, [laughing] so I stress out and practically kill myself trying to get things done. 

The dress took almost three months, just with everything else I had going on. At the same time, I had another dress go to the NFL Honors. It was worn on the red carpet by the designer of the Superbowl theme this year [Lucinda Hinojos].

Pier Carlo: Who was a guest on this podcast two years ago.

Norma: She’s fantastic! So that was going on. And it was funny because we did her so last-minute. After I met her, I knew exactly what I wanted to do for her because she’s such a bright spirit. So it was fantastic. But I had so much going on. 

I was a little over eight months pregnant. What had happened was the doctor said, “You know what? You need to go in. We’re going to schedule you for a C-section.” Because my daughter was pretty well-developed, I guess. She was getting a little big, so she needed to be evicted. I had surgery, I was in the hospital for a day, I get out and I’m literally back in my studio finishing the Miss America dress. I was like, “Can someone watch this baby real quick? I have to get back to work.” [She laughs.]

Pier Carlo: You got sewn up, and immediately you started sewing something!

Norma: I did. If I could have sewn myself up any faster, I probably would have. I’m like, “I have my sewing case in the car. Don’t worry.”

Pier Carlo: When did your interest in fashion begin? And at what point did you realize you wanted to marry your interest in Indigenous designs with your developing fashion sense?

Norma: I don’t think my love for fashion really began; it’s just always been there. When I was little, I lived with my grandparents. A cultural thing among our people is the grandparents have the right to ask for your eldest child. I am my mother’s eldest child, and so of course they asked to keep me, because she wanted to finish school and they thought that was their way of making that easier for her. I stayed with them, and I grew up out in the country. 

My grandpa was a rancher. He’s a Hidatsa from this reservation here in North Dakota. My grandmother’s a Dakota Sioux from Fort Peck, MT. I grew up around horses and cows and hay, and somehow in the mix I still found a way to wear toy high heels. [She laughs.] And my grandmother was like, “No, you can’t wear those shoes out there. You’re going to be chasing cows. No!” And I’d be little, just standing there, so defiant like, “I don’t care if I’m chasing a cow today, I’m wearing these heels.” That’s how much into fashion I was, even as a little girl. [She laughs.]

I’m an upcycler when it comes to making my designs. I grew up on secondhand clothing. That was due to the fact that after I left my grandparents, I went to live with my parents. We were living on Army bases because my stepfather … . We don’t have a word for step, so really it feels unnatural to say step because he’s raised me since I was a little girl, since he and my mother got together when I was about a year old. They went off to school and finished school, and I was with my grandparents. 

Living on the Army base, you’re not really around too much culture because we lived in areas where Indigenous culture was not predominant. It wasn’t the reservation, and it was a little hard. I’d always be asking my mom, “When are we going to go dance?” We were so far away. We were even up in Alaska. Although they have their own cultural practices, they’re not the same as the Plains. But somehow we ended up finding a powwow.

Pier Carlo: In Alaska?

Norma: Yeah. It was the tiniest little thing, but I’ll take it. I was happy. I was just wanting to dance. I didn’t care. So it was kind of difficult. But that’s how far back I’ve been immersed into the culture, straight from birth.

My grandfather, Norman Baker, who I’m named after, was one of the original Mandaree Singers, the drum group that would travel to powwows and sing and make songs for people. He was really well known, as well as his brothers, in the powwow world. My mother grew up in that and grew up being taught how to sew and bead by her mother, and of course she passed that on to me. 

Then of course I was fortunate enough to even have my grandmother until I was about 17. During that time, from 11 till when she passed, she was teaching me everything she could teach me about beadwork and sewing and quilting. I’m not a great quilter, but my sister picked up the quilting and then my other sister picked up her perfection habits. She’s a perfectionist. And I picked up where, “Just get it done. We got to get moving, we got to get going. Just get it done.”

Pier Carlo: Clearly as a small child wearing high heels out in the pasture, you liked high fashion and you’re also learning beadwork. At what point did you realize, “Hey, wait a minute, these two things can go together?”

Norma: Oh no, I didn’t realize that. We’ve been doing Native fashion; our ancestors did Native fashion. I grew up adding beaded earrings or a beaded bracelet, little things like that that were representational of the tribes that I came from, and I would wear them to school. 

Pier Carlo: Is that what you mean by upcycling?

Norma: Well, no, the upcycling was, we bought secondhand clothing and we would just put just jewelry to it. Back in the day it was just jewelry; no one really altered their contemporary clothing back then. There may have been a few people that were doing it. I’m sure there were, but no one was really putting it on the runway the way they do it now. 

It’s something that’s definitely been there that we’ve had forever, the ability to influence contemporary fashion with our culture. The women in our tribes would wear the peacoats that they were forced to wear, the contemporary clothing we were forced to wear, and they would see the brooches that the non-Native women were wearing on their outfits. Of course, we can’t afford pearls and things like that, so our ancestors were extremely inventive. They would make their own little jewelry to mimic the contemporary jewelry they were seeing on non-Natives. 

 

That’s what Native fashion is. It’s the influence of culture onto contemporary clothing, onto clothing that was forced upon us. We didn’t ask for this, we didn’t want this. It was forced upon us. So here we are finding a balance in today’s world.

 

That was a form of Native fashion, and that’s what Native fashion is. It’s the influence of culture onto contemporary clothing, onto clothing that was forced upon us. We didn’t ask for this, we didn’t want this. It was forced upon us. So here we are finding a balance in today’s world. I still put on a full regalia from beadwork from head to toe — and my family and relatives — but it took people, our ancestors, dying to protect the items that we had and to teach us these teachings to make these things. 

For me, it just evolved where I got into, I guess, pageants, the pageant ladies. I had a phone call from Miss Indian World, Cheyenne Brady. This was back some years ago, I’d say about eight years ago now. She says, “I have to do a speaking engagement, and I was wondering if you could make the ribbon dress.” The ribbon dress is a common dress among many tribes because the ribbon was a trade item from China. When settlers were coming over, they were trading us, and we were getting this ribbon and we began to make these very colorful dresses. They were full dresses; now you see us wearing them as skirts. And again, that’s Native fashion. 

She had called me and asked me. I started doing design work on stuff I was making for her, and with her being so out on social media, people started noticing my work. “Oh hey, can you make me a shirt? I’m speaking at this engagement over here or this that, and I would love to wear your shirt. I’d love to wear your designs.” That’s how that went, and pretty soon I was dressing a lot of people. 

Pier Carlo: You yourself are multicultural Native woman, and you also make clothing for Native peoples from different cultures. How free do you feel to mix and match traditions? Is there a limit? 

Norma: Yeah, no, there really isn’t. I think to every person, it’s really up to them because, again, Native fashion is a way of representation and it’s a way of us showing that we still have our cultural items, that our ancestors did fight for these things and they’re still here and they are beautiful, and they should be passed on. 

But the thing about it is we’re trying to find a balance in the new and old world. Part of that balance are Natives like me who come from multiple tribes. I’m Hidatsa, Dakota Sioux and Assiniboine. Although I want to honor all three of my tribes, I can’t do that all at once in a garment because for me garments are a way of representing a story or representing the reason that I use the things that I do, the textiles that I use.

So in my garments, you’re really not going to see too much mixture of my tribes. You’ll see Sioux predominantly, just because my grandmother was the reason why I know how to bead. My mother’s the reason I know how to sew, so I try to honor those individually. However, I have seen people will do it for their traditional regalia. They might have a design from one of their other tribes put on something that they use in a cultural event for another tribe that they belong to. I’ve seen little representations like that. And then unfortunately-

Pier Carlo: So to honor the tribe that they’re visiting, for instance?

Norma: Right, right. Well to honor the tribe that they come from, from both of them. 

My Hidatsa tribe and my Dakota Sioux tribe are not structured the same. They don’t have a lot of cultural practices that are alike, and so for me growing up it was, “OK, what am I going to in invest in?” My beadwork always represented my Dakota Sioux side because my grandmother, who is Dakota Sioux, taught me to bead and she taught me the designs and what they meant. In keeping with that, I keep my bead work predominantly Sioux. I say predominantly because once in a while I do try different designs from the different tribes that I belong to or techniques of how we wear our clothing.

I don’t have a problem with anybody representing multiple tribes. That’s up to them, however they want to represent themselves. The only thing that I ever tell people is, just do your homework. If you haven’t been taught these things, if they haven’t been passed down to you, if you can’t count back the ancestry that it comes from and point out where it came from, then you need to do the work. You need to learn. You need to learn things before you start using representation because that representation is not an identity, it’s not an ID. That representation is representing who we are individually, so if you can’t tell the story behind the designs that you’re using, you probably shouldn’t use them. 

Because there are designs in tribes that are not to be duplicated. There are designs that are only used on men or women. If I were to get on the internet today and search, oh, Native American design, and this design comes up and I like it and then I go and use it, I could find out later that that was actually someone’s family design or that that was not meant to be worn by a woman, that it was meant to be worn by a man. 

Pier Carlo: I want to talk about your business now because your work is going out farther into the world and may not always be necessarily worn by a Native person. You’ve been talking about telling stories through your work. As you know, when Native art has gone out into the larger market, it often has not gone well for the Native artists, so how are you going to ensure you retain control not only of your work, of course, but also of the stories that come with your artmaking?

Norma: I can’t. No one can. No one can. Chanel couldn’t. Versace couldn’t. I mean no one can take what they put out in the world and guarantee that it’s going to be received well or that it’s going to be passed on properly. You just have to take that chance, and you have to do your best to try to educate those that you’re selling to, that you’re giving these things to. 

If you go to my Instagram, you’ll find links that talk about appropriation, that talk about why it is OK for you to purchase from me, things like that. I wish everybody read. I wish everybody would stop and read, but I get it. Life is happening. You don’t always have that time to read all this information. I get it. But make that effort. If you like someone’s work and you want to support them, realize that by buying something from them, you are supporting them. And that’s amazing. People need to realize that not just buying a piece supports somebody but also knowing what it means and what it is and helping us to educate someone after that.

Let’s say we have a non-Native woman — this has happened — and she buys a shirt from my website. It’s one of the Hidatsa collection, and she turns around and tells people, “This is from the Hidatsa tribe. They are located in North Dakota.” You know what I mean? Just that little bit. It’s amazing how much a little bit of information can matter if we start sharing it and if we stop attacking people for not knowing the information. I mean people need to realize Native Americans, we’ve gone through so much trauma. I’m amazed we’re as calm as we are, I’m going to be honest with you. [She laughs.]

 

Pier Carlo: What’s been the steepest learning curve for you in your business journey? You were always in control of your art, but what did you have to learn about the business side of things?

Norma: Oh god, everything. And I’m still learning it. I sat down two years ago after leaving the tribal government. I was a tribal staffer for our tribal chairman and for another individual who was on the Council. I’d been doing this on the side while doing a full-time political job.

Pier Carlo: Tell me about the decision to quit the full-time job and go full scale into the business. That’s a big decision.

Norma: Unfortunately, I didn’t decide to quit. I was fired. So yeah. [She laughs.]

Pier Carlo: Congratulations!

Norma: I say this not in bitterness. I say this as in, “Goddamn, it took me getting fired to really go do what I wanted to do!” 

I won’t go into details. I’m going to be honest with you, I will argue this in any court that it was no wrongdoing on my part, but unfortunately when you’re politically appointed and you upset someone who appoints you, they can unappoint you. It wasn’t anything dramatic or criminal charges or anything like that. I was never let go for anything like that. It was a personal thing between myself and my ex-employer who unfortunately was a friend of mine. And it just took a toll. Tribal politics are not fun. They’re not fun. Very, very bad business to be in when you’re trying to run another business.

It was a lot of stress. Having to do my business after hours, being up all night and then having to go to work the next day was hard. It was really difficult. And I didn’t really start selling items until recently, until two years ago. Up until that point, I was basically doing things for free, just getting my name out there, traveling to fashion shows and paying my dues. This didn’t happen overnight for me. It literally hasn’t happened at all. I’m still learning. I could show you a ton of awards, but I’m still learning my business. I’m still trying to make my business work for me. 

I definitely want to make it so that I’m leaving something tangible for my children. My mission was to leave the ability to do what I do with them, and now they all have that. I’ve always told my children what my grandmother and mother always said, that if you have this talent, then you shouldn’t be going hungry and you shouldn’t be going without.

Pier Carlo: Oh, so you have taught your children the way your grandmother taught you?

Norma: Yes. My kids can all sew and bead. 

Pier Carlo: [Laughing] Did they do it willingly, or was it homework?

Norma: I have one that does it willingly and the other ones, they’re like, eh. But they’re such good kids that they would never tell me if they were annoyed with me. They’re so used to me.

Pier Carlo: What are your dreams for the business now that you’re two years in and you’ve shown internationally? Do you have a big-picture dream of where you want your designs to be?

Norma: Yeah, I want them to be everywhere, and I want to be able to learn this business well enough. Thank god for TikTok and thank god for YouTube. I did a lot of researching from other entrepreneurs on how to set things up with my website. “How do I do that? How do I get the shipping?” All of those little things that people do not realize take time to have a business. In order to have a business, you have to have certain things, and they’re not always easy.

Pier Carlo: Did you have a mentor for that, or did you just research that on your own?

Norma: I researched everything on my own. I literally found people on TikTok who were doing these things and were giving advice like, “Don’t buy this printer; I like this one instead.” Things like that. It just so helped. It expedited so much time for me. Whenever I would get a little bit of information from whoever it was — it didn’t matter who it was on TikTok — if they had a link for me to send a few bucks, I would try to send some coffee money their way and say, “Thank you, because you just saved me weeks of researching and weeks of frustration, probably sitting at my table, crying, trying to figure things out.” I always wanted to send them a little something. It’s not much, but just to let them know that they are appreciated for putting that information out there and teaching others how to do what they’re doing. I think it’s wonderful. I don’t know if I would have a business if I weren’t for TikTok [laughing], because I’m definitely not going to business school.

Pier Carlo: On this podcast I like to talk about artists are reinventing systems that no longer work so that their art can reach a wider audience. In your case, as you look back on your artistic journey and your business journey, what could be invented or changed so that it would be easier for you to reach your intended audience?

Norma: Oh, dear. Well, the price of manufacturing clothing here in the States, for one thing.

Pier Carlo: Meaning you had no choice but to work with an overseas vendor?

Norma: Yeah. I would not choose a foreign vendor if I had a better alternative because of the time it takes to get product from them. I have nothing against their product — they always have such good product — but the time that it takes, it’s difficult. And it’s difficult for me to convey that to people who have been shopping on Amazon since the pandemic and think that things are so readily available like that. And they’re not. 

I keep meaning to put together a whole video showing people, “This is what I do, this is who I am,” but I really don’t have the time to even tell or educate people on that because I am so busy doing the work. Once in a while I have more help, but, yeah, people don’t realize the work that it goes into having to run a business by yourself, a small business. Even with people helping you, it’s hard. It’s a lot of work.

And so for me, doing it alone with help that comes sporadically, yeah, there are days I just want to quit. I really do want to quit and be like, [laughing] “You know what? I think I’ve done enough. I’ve got a Grammy. I’m good. I’ll go get a job at the bank. I’ve done all I can do.” But I keep pushing because I keep thinking, “I’m going to figure this out. I’m going to do this. I’m going to make things work.” I love it. The stress, everything, it becomes worth it when people message me and say, “I love your clothing. I love your designs.” 

Every time I feel like I’m going to quit, I am not kidding — and I don’t know if this is my grandma or the Creator or who it is — but every time I feel like I’m at that point, “I’m going to quit now. This is it. I’m done. I cannot take it anymore because I’m too stressed, especially lately with a new baby,” I get a message from a random person who will be like, “I just want you to know you’re doing great things and I’m so happy for you that you’re getting these awards. I love your designs. Keep it up, keep the good work up.” It just brings me to tears because it’s like I get those messages when I need them, which isn’t too often. I haven’t really gotten to the point of breaking down too often, which I guess is good, but yeah, I love it, the support.

Pier Carlo: Finally, could you talk about a new or planned design that you are particularly excited about? Or a new line?

Norma: Oh gosh, yes! I have actually about three or four, I think. Four if we can do it, if we can manage it. And when I say me, I mean the people that I’m going to harass to help me. [She laughs.] Because I do have a few people that are like, “Eh, we’ll just do it.” I have about four launches, four collections going to be coming out, rolling out here.  I have a lot of time to make up for because a lot of my time went into, of course, having a baby and doing a lot of custom work for a lot of people for awards and whatnot. I’ve got a lot of catching up to do since the baby and all that, so we’re going to be releasing quite a few collections, just trying to keep it going here. 

There’s one in particular that I’m super excited for. We’re shooting for end of July or beginning of August on this one. It’s going to tell the story of the star quilt. I’m really excited. I don’t want to say too much more than that.

Pier Carlo: You know I was about to ask you for the story of the star quilt, but it sounds like I should wait to see the designs.

Norma: Yeah, it’ll definitely come out with the designs. Like I said, things probably have a story behind them, and I’m not expecting people to know exactly how to tell stories passing on, but at least know the tribe that it comes from and the purpose that it was created and who it’s honoring. Because nine times out of 10, if I’m making garments to sell, it has a meaning behind it. It has some kind of influence. 

The women in my family, almost everyone I know, including my siblings, my two sisters, they know how to quilt. They’re quilters. My mother put herself through college quilting. She would quilt on the weekends, and then she’d go to school all week and she would get scholarships. Between scholarships and quilting, she was able to pay for her college and she was able to get a small car.

We use quilts to honor people left and right. It’s definitely a story that a lot of people don’t get to hear too often. I’m pretty excited that I have people coming on board to help me execute this and hopefully do it justice and pay some respect to our quilters, because our quilters are amazing. We use quilts for everything. It’s such an honor to get one from someone. They mean something culturally to us. We took that medium and made it our own. I’m excited to share the story of where that comes from and why you see so many quilts among so many tribes and what they mean to us.