Noelle Scaggs

The views and opinions expressed by speakers and presenters in connection with Art Restart are their own, and not an endorsement by the Thomas S. Kenan Institute for the Arts and the UNC School of the Arts. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

As the co-lead vocalist of the alt-pop band Fitz and the Tantrums since 2008, Noelle Scaggs was used to seeing huge crowds through her years of live performance and touring. Their songs “Out of My League” and “The Walker,” both of which Noelle co-wrote, were certified Platinum and hit the number one spot on the Alternative Airplay chart, and in 2016 their song “HandClap” became a bona fide sensation, a triple-platinum international hit that the casual listener could hear anywhere from Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade to FOX’s Superbowl preshow. What Noelle wasn’t used to seeing while on tour, however, were Black women like her in any of the myriad behind-the-scenes positions that make tours possible.

When the pandemic hit and tours were canceled, Noelle gathered her thoughts and then decided to speak up. She wrote an open letter to the music industry that Billboard published in September 2020. In the letter, she states, “As an artist and a Black woman of color, I can and will no longer accept being the only person like me in any room or any stage,” and then goes on to announce the creation of Diversify the Stage, an initiative to establish more inclusive hiring practices and greater access to equitable opportunities for Black, Indigenous and People of Color (BIPOC); Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queer (LGBTQIA+); Female-identifying, Gender Nonconforming individuals, and Disabled Persons.

In this interview with Pier Carlo Talenti, Noelle describes what she’s discovered about her industry and herself as she’s developed Diversify the Stage and imagines a future when the organization’s mission has been accomplished.

Choose a question below to begin exploring the interview:

Pier Carlo Talenti: How did you decide to create Diversify the Stage?

Noelle Scaggs: Of course, last year was a pretty heavy year for just the Black community in general — all people with COVID going on but specifically the Black community — just with all of the violence that we were having to absorb, things that we had known about for years that have been happening and going on for decades now that were now being put in front of everyone and everyone needing to now participate in fighting against it.

For me, it was a lot of conversations that were really going on within the music industry as it related to social impact and equity for Black and brown communities, BIPOC communities in general. I felt like there were some major conversations that weren’t going on about a massive part of our industry when we’re looking at our touring business and our live community and all of the things that I’ve noticed throughout my career. I just really wanted to start a dialogue. I was really doing posts on my social media accounts and having discussions with people on the side, my touring teams, and just really trying to identify how people put together a touring event, like who does what and what is the process and how is my tour manager finding these vendors and who’s supplying the staff? I was just really getting micro and wanting to learn more about this side of the industry that I honestly had slept through.

We spend our time on our buses, and we’re getting onstage to do our job. We show up and everything is done, and hopefully nothing goes and falls apart while we’re in the process of performing for fans and doing what we do creatively. I was very disconnected from that side of the business because I really didn’t need to get involved in it.

What I learned is that my voice would actually help to change things as an artist. ... So I figured why not create these types of actions and this type of education for all artists that are really interested in bringing significant change to our business in areas that we are uneducated about?

What I learned is that my voice would actually help to change things as an artist. If I specified that I wanted a diverse crew at every production, my team would make it happen because they want to keep me as a client. I learned my power and the use of my voice and expressing the things that I wanted to see internally throughout my business. So I figured why not create these types of actions and this type of education for all artists that are really interested in bringing significant change to our business in areas that we are uneducated about?

That was really how I started the process, and within that, the more information that I was exposed to, I learned that I needed to go a step further. That’s how Diversify the Stage was born. Diversify the Stage has developed into basically a network of industry professionals who have the same goals and are in alignment with my vision for creating more diverse and inclusive and equitable spaces for all people in this industry. It is also a network of community-engagement organizations that have been doing this work for a long time under the radar just really working together and pooling our resources to really activate a common change and create more standard practices of intention as it relates to hiring, as it relates to creating safe spaces for our fans, for our staff members.

We’re looking at everything from HR practices being implemented into touring teams, just simple trainings for inclusion. We’re looking at mental health, the intention of diversity when you’re hiring and education, really looking to uplift the next generation that may have no idea that these career paths exist by engaging them in educational opportunities for master classes; having folks like Jerome Crooks — who was the tour manager of Nine Inch Nails and Soundgarden — and Tina Farris — who’s been running her own tour-direction and production company for years and really putting an intention on hiring Black communities for these shows that she’s been producing — and having them speak to young people about what they do and what their path was and things that they should consider learning through this process of them trying to find their way in the music industry.

Pier Carlo: Because so much of that work is word-of-mouth, right?

Noelle: Yes.

Pier Carlo: So if you’re in any way out of the loop, you have no idea these jobs exist.

Noelle: Exactly. I wanted to take that practice that we’re already used, this word-of-mouth formula, and put it into a space that can actually help educate others that wouldn’t know or wouldn’t otherwise have the opportunity unless they were taking theater or they were involved in this in their school time from high school on. Otherwise they wouldn’t know.

I have young drummers that have been playing and want to be onstage and have no idea that drum techs exist and that people are making a living off of supporting a drummer and being a part of the process of even the recording. Because if you’re really even good at that, if you understand the balance of sound on a live setting and within the recorded process and you understand how to really maximize and make another drummer shine, that’s a career path you can have for the rest of your life with one band.

Pier Carlo: Are you enjoying this work?

Noelle: It’s very fulfilling. I think for me it’s been a life-changing moment in that I’ve been engaged with not only the process of doing something that I think will have a long-term effect on our industry in a positive direction; I’ve also been able to impact young people, because in this process of me working towards building the big picture alongside a lot of other folks, I’ve also been engaged in putting the process of education together for young people and exposing them to this industry and getting them workforce placement and being a part of their journey.

From October of last year up until even now — because I’m still having a lot of conversations with the alumni cohort that I was able to take on — I was able to develop a college-age apprenticeship program that I’m going to continue doing, really focusing in on this boutique method of bringing up young people into this industry and doing it in a way where the music industry as a whole can be invited to participate in any of the three phases: the master classes, which is planting the seed in the minds of young people; the mentorship, which activates not only as you being a support person for this young person that is going through their journey but also their referral; and then the next step, moving them into apprenticeship and workforce placement with our network partners.

So really creating this village workshop [she laughs] for people to be able to participate in.

Pier Carlo: It sounds like people can pinpoint their interests and they have steps to follow until they eventually get hired as a professional.

Noelle: Yeah. It’s been really amazing to see not only the impact that it’s been having on myself and the students but also on the people that have been involved.

Pier Carlo: Can you give us some examples?

Noelle: Yeah. I had a really great conversation with a gentleman by the name of Chris Gratton, who works with Justin Bieber, and he was talking to me about one of the students that he mentored from my program and how he still talks to her. The program is about six months long. He is just blown away by her, her passion for what she does, how smart she is. They’re talking about doing other projects and stuff together.

It’s really incredible to see that this person that’s been in the game for as long as he has been, who is working with the caliber of artists that he’s working with, be so passionate about this one student that he had the ability to engage with and how she’s impacted him ...

It’s just really cool to see how his mentoring of this young woman has had an effect on him, had an impact on him, and how he wants to continue that work with other people. It’s really incredible to see that this person that’s been in the game for as long as he has been, who is working with the caliber of artists that he’s working with, be so passionate about this one student that he had the ability to engage with and how she’s impacted him just in the way that she thinks and watching her grow in her journey.

Pier Carlo: Now that bands are starting to make plans to tour again, have you noticed a change in hiring practices?

Noelle: Yeah. I think the conversations are abuzz. I think it’s really people trying to figure out how to word what they want to accomplish. There are sensitivities around identifications and not saying the wrong thing and not excluding people unconsciously. What I’m doing with all of these other people is trying to create tools that artists can use, that they can plug into their ask and know that they’re going to be supported because we’ve done the due diligence of making sure that we’re saying the right thing.

People are having the conversations. I’m getting more and more tour managers reaching out to me, wanting to figure out how they can utilize the tools that we do have, asking me for references. I’m like, “OK, let’s see who we can find here. If I don’t have it in my database, let’s start looking at these other resources that we have and find you the right person.” Really at the end of the day it’s about finding the right person, not just the person based upon your DEI [Diversity, Equity and Inclusion] goals and vision. At the end of the day you want to make sure that you have people that you can rely upon and that you know are going to be able to do the job. That quality is still as important as the intention of having more diverse practices. That’s the real goal there.

I think artists are starting to see it. I think they were starting to see it last year when they looked around the room and recognized that there was no one of color in their camp or on any stage that they may have stepped on, the same thing that I went through. It’s not to say that it was completely devoid of color, but we still have a long way to go.

Pier Carlo: Close your eyes and imagine five, 10 years from now — hopefully five — when a lot of the goals of Diversify the Stage have been accomplished and the touring world is much more diverse than what you’re experiencing now. How would you feel that difference as you’re out on the road for all those months? How would it be qualitatively different for you?

Noelle: I think it would be, for me, looking around and knowing that there are people that can identify with my journey or at least have some kind of commonality with a struggle. It’s hard to explain. Everybody’s struggle is different. My struggle is a lot different from somebody that identifies as Latino or Asian. It’s just really being able to look around the room and notice the rainbow tribe.

It just makes for a better environment. People are able to learn from each other, and it’s hard to do that when you are walking the same road.

And the energy is just different. If you sit down and you talk to anybody that started hiring women in their crew and how different the energy is as opposed to what it was when it was all men, they tell you, hands down, they’ll never do another tour where it doesn’t have a gender balance ever again. I don’t know if it just ... . It softens the testosterone in the room, you know what I mean? It’s noticeable, and women notice it too. They notice it. It’s even better when there’s racial diversity or religious diversity. It just makes for a better environment. People are able to learn from each other, and it’s hard to do that when you are walking the same road.

Yeah, that’s all I can say there. Our team, we’ve always been really good about hiring as it relates to gender balance, because I spent a year on the road with basically me being the only woman and it really started to get to me. We made it a conscious decision to make sure that we were hiring women or non-binary-identifying people.

Pier Carlo: You used your voice at a certain point and expressed your discomfort. How was that?

Noelle: It was great. I think also it was noticeable. I think our tour manager at the time noticed. He was like, “Yeah, we need to get more women because I don’t want Noelle to be alone.” At the time it was really our tour manager speaking up on it and then me saying something independently of that conversation and the management being supportive of it.

Pier Carlo: What in this work came naturally to you, to your artist spirit and your experience as an artist, and what skills did you have to develop?

Noelle: I think my negotiating my ability to think on a very micro level has helped me tremendously with the process.

Pier Carlo: Is that a skill you use in your songwriting, the micro?

Noelle: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, the micro, I think, really comes down to me being a lyricist and how I look at lyrics and how I really think about storytelling and how things for me have to make sense in order for me to feel that it’s done. I also have to be able to see it visually. I know a song is done when I can literally create the entire music video in my head at the end of it or I have some type of visual picture of what it could look like or I just get some type of dreamy thing that will tie into a visual element of the record. That’s how I know it’s done. Usually when I can’t see that, there’s something missing; there’s something that’s not really fully connecting to my spirit.

In this work, it’s allowed me to not only go on a micro level and talk to different people and create this vision; it’s really helped me brainstorm. It’s so funny because I talk to my friend Ali Harnell, who’s the VP of strategy at Live Nation Women, who’s also been a major part of this, and she’s like, “I cannot believe the way that you think about this. How do you even have time?” I think I’ve always been this way, where I can literally dive into something so deeply and come out at the end of it with some form of an idea that people can help me bring it to life.

Pier Carlo: And what has not come quite as easily for you?

Noelle: I don’t know anything about building a business [she laughs] as it relates to really thinking about nonprofits and the infrastructure and all of the things that need to go into it, having the right people in place and the containers and all this stuff. That stuff has been a real learning curve for me. I’ve had to really bring myself out of the space and say, “Hey, I don’t know enough about this to be able to take this on,” and asking for help, knowing how to ask for help in it.

But there have been other things where I’m like, “If I don’t learn how to do this on my own, we’re not going to get across the finish line because I can’t even possibly formulate the question to ask you.” I almost have to go through the trial and error in order for me to understand the right question to ask. That’s been a bit of the process for me.

Pier Carlo: That sounds like a very artistic thing to do, actually.

Noelle: Yeah, right. It’s like, “Let me write as many garbage songs as possible and then ...”

Pier Carlo: “Let me throw something at the wall — “

Noelle: [Laughing] “And see what sticks.”

Fortunately I’ve been smart enough to have people in place that know way more than me so the ship hasn’t fallen apart, but I probably could have done things a little bit differently, as far as having the infrastructure in place before I pulled the trigger on the college-age program. But I also felt like, we got enough time to really get this right and for me to have enough time to formulate the plan come 2022 and know that it’s going to be executed well because we’ve already done this pilot. The fact that I’ve been able to place 80% of my students in jobs, and not just like ... . There are some that have taken on multiple —

Pier Carlo: Wait, say that again, because that’s an amazing —

Noelle: Yeah, during COVID. Eighty percent of my cohort have been placed in paid opportunities through the process of me having —

Pier Carlo: Congratulations. That’s amazing!

Noelle: Thank you. Thank you! I always feel really weird about saying it, but if I don’t put it out there, I think I get really hard on myself. It’s like, “Oh, this one student I haven’t been able to do this with yet,” and I forget about all of the other people that I have been able to help. I need to give myself credit. It’s kind of my thing: It’s not really a bragging right, but it’s also to affirm, “Hey, Noelle, yes, you are on the right path. Keep moving. Don’t get distracted by the doubt.” Knowing that I’ve been able to do that in this time, in the most challenging time of the industry, really gives me hope in knowing that we’ll be successful when things really start picking up again and we’re able to place more students.

Pier Carlo: As I’ve been listening to your music and watching your videos, one thing I noticed was, “Oh, there’s a Black woman and a white man onstage singing together,” which made me realize that is not something I’ve seen very much in bands’ frontmen and frontwomen. I’m wondering if you think the changes you’re working toward will also have an effect on the diversity of artists within individual groups or ensembles.

Noelle: It’s crazy because I’m already starting to see it. If you look at some of the alternative bands even coming out of Elektra right now, they’re all mixed. They have different ethnic backgrounds, different gender or non-gender-identifying folks. It’s really cool to see the young generation fall into this natural pocket of being with different people and having different experiences and things like that.

Pier Carlo: I imagine too, as these new younger bands start hiring for their own crews, they will automatically want crews that are as diverse as they are, right?

Noelle: Yeah, as long as they have an understanding of, again, that power in asking. Like I said, when we’re thinking about just the music industry in general and the mysteries … . We try to keep the artist away from things that they shouldn’t have to worry about, be it building up their team once they find a manager or the agent, all the things that we don’t have to worry about.

Pier Carlo: Even though the tour is where the artists make their living, really, right?

Noelle: Yeah, especially now. Hopefully [laughing] it starts to change, and we can start seeing some balance with hard sales again.

Just thinking about the collective, of really educating young people. I’m seeing it a lot in hip-hop. If we’re just thinking about what’s happening with young hip-hop artists right now and ownership of their commodity, if we can start seeing that type of education fall into their live business and how that’s built and who’s involved, the sky’s the limit for the next gen. The sky’s the limit.

I think there may be bands at my age saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” kind of thing. I think those are going to be the challenges that I have with some of the folks that I may approach about joining in and supporting Diversify the Stage in this coming initiative. But I think for the most part 2020 is not going to get lost in people’s mind. There’s no way, I think, you can turn off the effects of last year and just move on like it never happened, especially in the music industry.

The music industry is a universal language for everyone. I think it’s just a matter of educating artists on what they can do and the little steps that they can take to help improve and evolve our industry on a collective level.

The music industry is a universal language for everyone. I think it’s just a matter of educating artists on what they can do and the little steps that they can take to help improve and evolve our industry on a collective level and then also just educating people in general, just acknowledging that somebody may have a different path than they do and just really educating our older people on the new way of being considerate of people, whether or not we’re thinking about accessibility or we’re thinking about mental health and making sure that our counselors have education in the Black experience in some way and what it is to counsel somebody that has a path of being a BIPOC person in an environment where they’re considered the minority.

Pier Carlo: This is something I didn’t know. Fitz and the Tantrums, for instance, offers mental-health counseling to its band and crew?

Noelle: We are talking about how we can do that. What I’m doing within Diversify the Stage is offering resources that supply these kinds of things, be it Backline Care or MusiCares. I’m looking at all of the actual industry-servicing mental-health organizations that we already have in place and making sure that people know that they exist out there. Just providing that tool to people can open up a world of things.

I think individually we all already know that mental health is very important, from our crew to the band members themselves. I think we’ve all taken our own individual approaches to how we deal with our mental health and our support and things like that, and we’re very supportive of each other. We’ve made it a very healthy environment to work for us. Again, that comes down to intention.

Pier Carlo: That must have developed over the years, because you guys have been together for a while now.

Noelle: Yeah. I had my own mental-health struggles for a long time, and it was really hard for me to open up that door to my band. Obviously, I was dealing with it. I had my therapist and things like that, but I had incredible struggles on the road, especially around the time when we were really blowing up with “More Than Just a Dream.” My whole life had changed. I wasn’t seeing my friends, and I didn’t really know how to reconnect with people when I would come back on the road. It got really lonely for a long period of time.

Finally just being able to open up to my band and Fitz coming to me and saying, “Dude, I’ve noticed X, Y, and Z, and I’m concerned. I need you to know that we are here for you and you’re not alone” — me just even hearing that coming from him and them all recognizing where I was without me having to say it — was important.

Pier Carlo: What’s most surprised you in this journey?

Noelle: I would say the number of people that have reached out and said, “What can I do?” I’m not just talking about folks that are on what I would consider to be my level or when we’re thinking about our road crew and things like that. I mean everybody: the heads of companies, the CEOs, the founders, the heads of the X, Y, and Z venue. “How can we help? What can we do? How can we get involved?”

Pier Carlo: And it feels genuine, not performative?

Noelle: It feels genuine. There have been some cases where I’m like, “This is absolutely performative, and I won’t get involved in it.” Those people haven’t come back around, and that’s fine.

The sticklers, the folks that have literally been engaged with me since I wrote the op-ed that landed in Billboard — from the editing and the consistent back-and-forth of the Google document, me trying to find the right words and saying it the right way, making sure that I was representing the whole and not just my own opinion — these folks are still in it with me right now as we develop what I hope to be the final push on this inclusion initiative that I’ve been working on along with my volunteer team for the last eight or nine months.

Pier Carlo: I want to end focusing on your art and ask you, as you look ahead over the next 12 months, what artistic project are you most excited to work on?

Noelle: Oh, definitely getting back in the studio and working on our fifth record with the band. I also have my own projects that I really want to finish up. I took a bit of a break from songwriting because I needed to find my footing in music again. I was having a bit of a battle in deciding what I really wanted to do even before Diversify the Stage became a thing, and I think I’ve figured it out.

I’ve found my voice and my purpose again and why I got into this business in the first place. It’s really to help people. I don’t think I ever did anything in this industry for myself, and I don’t think that’s ever going to change.

I’ve found my voice and my purpose again and why I got into this business in the first place. It’s really to help people. I don’t think I ever did anything in this industry for myself, and I don’t think that’s ever going to change. From writing a song that may change another person’s life or making a business decision that impacts a young person in taking the same road, I’ve always done things in the hopes that it would inspire other people to take the leap. And so far, so good.

November 01, 2021